Ye Olde Grammarian (No.5): More Pesky Punctuation

      


http://pentopapercommunications.com/2011/10/31/comma-conundrumsthe-dos-and-donts-of-commas/

       I've been doing some copyediting lately, and that means I have punctuation on the brain.  So allow me to disemburden (is that a word?) myself.

 

       First let me list links to my earlier Olde Grammarian posts, in case any of you are eager to suffer more agony:

Ye Olde Grammarian [No.1]: I discuss the value of diagramming sentences and also dangling participial and prepositional phrases.

Ye Olde Grammarian (No.2):  I discuss that common bugaboo, the incorrect use of pronoun cases. Grrr! One of my pet peeves!

Ye Olde Grammarian (No. 3): Pesky Punctuation Problems: I discussed the placement of periods, commas, etc., in relation to quotation marks and parentheses.

Ye Olde Grammarian is Ba-a-ck (No.4): a humorous post where I ended up on the subject of the Oxford comma.

 

       Allow me to first review the rules for punctuating dialogue since these may be unfamiliar especially to those whose first language is not English (other language have totally different conventions in the matter of punctuation).

       Any statement or question or exclamation uttered by a character must be enclosed in quotation marks.  "I saw the murderer come through the door."  "Did the murderer come through the door?" "Wow, the murderer made a quick getaway!"  The end mark on the sentence always goes inside the quotation mark.

       But what if you want to say who said those things?

       "I saw the murderer come through the door," John said. (Note that a comma ends the bit of dialogue because the whole shebang is one sentence.  It doesn't make sense to write "I saw the murderer come through the door."  John said.  John said is not a separate or complete sentence.)

       Ditto for

       John said, "I saw the murderer come through the door."  Do not write: John said.  "I saw him come through the door."

       In the case of questions marks or exclamation points, they stand in place of the comma, inside the quotation mark:

       "Did the murderer come through the door?" John said.

       John said, "Did he come through the door?"

       So what if you want to split up the quotation?

       "I saw the murderer run through the door," said John.  "I don't know where he went after that."  (Note the normal comma before said John.  A period follows because it ends a complete sentence.  Then a new sentence begins, so it's simply enclosed in quotation marks.)

       "I saw the murderer run through the door," said John, "and jump into his car."  Here you decided to divide the sentence, inserting said John in the middle.  It becomes a kind of appositive (more on that in a minute), so it gets set off with commas.  Since the sentence isn't complete, the second part begins with a lower-case letter.  Never write: "I saw the murderer run through the door," said John.  "and jump into his car."  Also never write: "I saw him run through the door," said John.  "And jump into his car."  Ditto, never write: "I saw him run through the door," said John.  "and jump into his car." 

       What if you are using he said instead of John said?  Correct examples:

       "John came through the door," he said. (Note the lower case h, because it's not a proper name.)

       "John came through the door," he said, "and jumped into his car."

       "John came through the door," he said.  "Then he jumped into his car."

 

       Okay, now the appositive, that vague term.  Appositives - useful constructs - need some definition.  (Can you identify two appositives in the two preceding sentences?)  Here is how Grammar Monster defines the term:  

       "An appositive is a noun, a noun phrase, or a noun clause which sits next to another noun to rename it or to describe it in another way. (The word appositive comes from the Latin for to put near.)  Appositives are usually offset with commas, brackets, or dashes."

       I honestly don't know if he said in quoted speech should be called an appositive, but it certainly has the characteristics of one. 

       A common use of the appositive is the placement of a name to define the previous word or phrase.  These are often mispunctuated.

       My dog, Ollie, will chew your shoes if he gets a chance.

       My best friend, Mary, can't come to the party.

       Personally, I have no objection to seeing the commas omitted in those cases.  It seems a little confusing.  Now if you're addressing somebody, then yes, put commas.  You might think you were addressing Mary here until you read the rest of the sentence.

       I would prefer to say: Mary, my best friend, can't come to the party.  (My best friend is the appositive here and clearly needs to be set off with commas.)

      

      Another error of comma use related to this is in punctuating salutations and greetings.  I continue to be old school and do it the way I was taught, even though it seems to have been universally abandoned these days.  I will continue to address you in emails as

       Hi, John, (not as Hi John)

       However, I will not do this if your name is Mary.  Then I will write

       Hi, Mary,

      The use of the vocative (i.e., an instance where you are addressing someone) is related to this.  A terrific example of this appears in the picture at the top of this post.  And here is another (adapted from this website) as to why you should set off the name of the person addressed with a comma:

       What don't you want to tell John?
       What don't you want to tell, John?

 

       And I believe that's quite enough for now, although I haven't run out of topics! 

       And I want to apologize to John, whoever and wherever you are.  You are a sterling fellow and certainly not a murderer, and I have absolutely no wish to defame your character!

 

Ye Olde Grammarian, No. 3: Pesky Punctuation Problems

       In her peregrinations around the blogosphere and the self-publishing community, Ye Olde Grammarian has noted some anomalies in the use of certain punctuation marks that she felt ought to be addressed.  They involve the use of commas, periods, colons, semicolons, and question marks when combined with quotation marks and parentheses.  There are lots of websites out there where these rules are addressed, but still people seem to be confused.

Where does one put the closing punctuation when quotation marks are used?  Is it inside or outside the quotation mark?

 

Periods and commas always go inside the quotation mark, whether it's single or double. 

 

Correct:  He said, "I won't be home until evening."

Incorrect:  He said, "I won't be home until evening".

 

Correct: He said, "I heard her say, 'There's no one here.'"

Incorrect:  He said, "I heard her say, 'There's no one here'."

Incorrect:  He said, "I heard her say, 'There's no one here'".

Question marks can be tricky (the same rules apply to exclamation points).

 

Correct: He said, "When can I come home?"

Incorrect: He said, "When can I come home"?

 

Correct: Did I hear him say "I'm not coming home"?

Incorrect: Did I hear him say, "I'm not coming home?"

Incorrect: Did I hear him say, "I'm not coming home."?

[In this case, the whole sentence is a question and the quoted part is a simple declarative sentence, so the mark goes outside the quotation mark.  The third example demonstrates that you don't duplicate punctuation.]

 

BUT ...

 

Correct: I heard him say, "Aren't you coming home?"

Incorrect: I heard him say, "Aren't you coming home"?

Incorrect: I heard him say, "Aren't you coming home?".

[Here the whole sentence is a declarative statement, but the quoted part is a question unto itself, so the mark goes with the quotation.  And again, you don't duplicate punctuation.]

 

Colons and semicolons go outside the quotation marks. 

 

Last year about this time I was engaged in copyediting a novel for someone and in the process I double-checked things I wasn't sure about. That's when I discovered this rule.  I confess I had always thought semicolons went inside the quotation mark and had always used them that way in my writing.  I had never thought about colons, since that situation would occur rather infrequently.  Anyway, I know better now and here are my examples:

Correct: I suggested he use the common name "Mary"; he refused with a scornful twist of the lip, remarking, "You have no imagination!"

[Note that the exclamation point goes inside the quotation mark because it pertains only to the quoted sentence.]

If the sentence had read like this, with a comma instead of a semicolon, the comma would go inside the quotation mark.

Correct: I suggested he use the common name "Mary," but he refused.

Correct: pai| is the Shshi root for "war." "Warrior": pai'zei|; the noun "fight": pai'zi|; "battle": pai'pai'zi| (literally, "fight among many")

[This second example is similar to material in the footnotes from my "Labors" series.  You can imagine how much difficulty I had copyediting them!  Getting all those colons and semicolons and quotation marks placed and spaced right was devilish, to say nothing of keeping the italics consistent!  And note that I omitted a closing period because the succession of words is not a complete sentence.]

The same basic rule applies to parentheses that applies to quotation marks.

 

Correct: After we went to bed (and there was really nothing else to do), a storm came up.

Incorrect: After we went to bed (and there was really nothing else to do,) a storm came up.

Incorrect: After we went to bed, (and there was really nothing else to do), a storm came up.

[Since the parenthetical material belongs with the opening subordinate clause, you don't set it off with an initial comma.]

 

Correct: After we went to bed, a storm came up (hadn't I said it would?)

Incorrect: After we went to bed, a storm came up (hadn't I said it would)?

Correct: After we went to bed, a storm came up (and it was a real thunder-boomer!)

Incorrect:  After we went to bed, a storm came up (and it was a real thunder-boomer)!

[In these two examples, the question mark or the exclamation point pertains only to the clause in parentheses.]

Never duplicate punctuation.

 

Incorrect: After we went to bed, a storm came up (hadn't I said it would?).

[If a mark of punctuation is used inside the closing parenthesis, you don't add a period at the end.]

Correct: I wrote a long term paper (actually, it was a bit too long).

Incorrect: I wrote a long term paper (actually, it was a bit too long.)

[Here, the parenthetical material is treated as part of the basic sentence, so the period comes outside the closing parenthesis.]

 

Correct: I wrote a long term paper. (Actually, it was a bit too long.)

Incorrect: I wrote a long term paper.  (Actually, it was a bit too long).

[If the parenthetical material stands alone, place the punctuation within the closing parenthesis, just as you would with quotation marks.]

 

Are you thoroughly confused?  I know I've managed to confuse myself!  But I think I know these rules and apply them automatically.  If you want to see an expert's simpler exposition, go to http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp